The Divine Dialogue: Understanding Prayer for Healing with Rev. David Chotka

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Hello everyone, thanks again for joining us on another episode of the Dorsey Rose Show.

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Today we have a special guest with us.

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He was here with us several months ago and his name is Dr David Zocker.

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He is the founder and director of Spirit Equip Ministries.

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He has served on the chair of the Alliance Blair Team, the National Blair Equipping Team of the Alliance in Canada, for more than 20 years.

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He is the author, conference speaker, director of Renewal Society, a writer and a Blair mobilizer.

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A writer and a prayer mobilizer.

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David has served his Lord as a church planter, a solo pastor, an associate and as a lead pastor of a multi-staff church in the Canadian province of British Columbia, alberta and Ontario.

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That's it, david.

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Thank you so much for coming on the show again today.

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Well, thank you for having me back.

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We've had a little comedy of errors to get ourselves back here.

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We kept missing each other, so I'm delighted that you have invited me back and I'm very thankful, and I'm looking forward to the interview.

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Yes, I wanted to, you know, finish that interview and you know I felt like we missed a couple of questions in that last interview and I wanted to come on and finish off the rest of these questions that I had for you.

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Sure, and one of the questions, first question.

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Then you mentioned the story in the last episode and we can get to that in a minute.

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But one of the questions is some find it difficult to reconcile a need for medical care and believing in miraculous healing.

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What can you tell us about the relationship between medicine and miracle?

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Well, I have a chapter called Medicine, miracle and Mystery.

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That's in the book and the reason that's there is because I don't think there's any conflict at all between medical science and faith in the Lord.

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And the reason I say that is because the Bible itself testifies to people using medical solutions when they had access to miracle.

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Let me give you the very best story.

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I think it's a hilarious story.

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It's in 2 Kings, 20.

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It's also in Isaiah 38.

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It's the story of Hezekiah, king of Judah, who was one of the good guys.

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I mean, you know this.

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If you read the Bible, you know that all the northern kings were bad 200 years of bad and the southern kingdom had about eight kings out of the total of, I think, 16 or 17, who were either very good or pretty good.

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So it wasn't exactly batting 1,000 when it came to this.

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But one of the very good ones was a guy by the name of Hezekiah and Isaiah the prophet was his contemporary.

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And Hezekiah has gone around teaching the word of the Lord and taking down the Baal altars and the Asherah poles and he's doing his best to try and establish the rule of God in the country and he gets very sick.

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And Isaiah the prophet I mean, the guy was 66 chapters.

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He marches into the king's palace, stands next to the king and says you're dead, it's over, it's history.

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Put your house in order, you're not going to live.

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Now I don't know about you, but if I heard a major prophet like that say that word, I would be in a bad way.

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Anyway, he turns to face the wall and then he weeps bitter tears.

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This is from the second king's account and it actually he doesn't even say oh God, heal me, he just says oh God, remember how I have served you, remember what I've done.

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And as he's praying the prayer and Isaiah is leaving, isaiah gets a second download from the Lord and he goes back and he says tell Hezekiah, the leader of my people, I'm adding 15 years to his life.

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And so he goes into the king's presence, he says this word and the king says isn't that nice?

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Prove it.

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So anyway, this you know.

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By the way, the tale is so Jewish, the posture of being Jewish is to argue with God when you get into your solution.

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It's a bargaining kind of thing.

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So you see that, with Moses all the time and Jeremiah, now, here you have the king.

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Anyway, the point is he has this thing and he says to Isaiah prove it.

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And so Isaiah says well, what do you want?

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Do you want the shadow to go down 10 steps, or do you want the shadow to go backwards 10 steps?

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He said, oh, down that's easy, up that's hard, I want the hard one.

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So it says that Isaiah cries out to the Lord, which is loud prayer.

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He prays this loud prayer and, lo and behold, the shadow moves back 10 steps.

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And so Hezekiah sees the miracle.

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Isaiah sees the miracle.

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And then Isaiah says to the king now, here's what you got to do Get yourself a fake poultice, put it over top of that broil, suck the poison out.

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You're going to be fine.

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Then he writes a little song.

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So the point I'm making here is that text in the Old Testament makes clear that in the mind of Isaiah and in the mind of Hezekiah and in the mind of whoever it was that compiled the scripture after Isaiah passed, all of them believed that there was absolutely no conflict between using medicine and praying for miracles.

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And so here's the summary of the narrative he gets a prophetic utterance, he's going.

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Summary of the narrative he gets a prophetic utterance he's going to be dead.

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He prays a prayer asking for God to remember him, he gets another prophetic utterance saying he's going to live.

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He pushes back against the king and gets a nature miracle after a prayer and then he has to take his medicine.

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So actually right now I'm on the end of a course of antibiotics because I had an ear infection and so I didn't hesitate to do that and I asked my friends to pray and it's been a long infection.

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But listen, the reason I wrote the book is because I wanted to unpack the thesis out there that there's only one kind of healing the instant heal, or there's no kind of healing, it never happens.

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I wanted to go great against those two worldviews because how do I say this?

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They are partially correct but not informed by the whole package.

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So the last chapter, the first chapter in the book, tells some healing stories and then, as we go through the book, my co-writer, maxi Dunham, and I underscore different aspects of how to prepare for prayer for healing.

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We always intersperse a story or two in there.

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Sometimes there's process healing, sometimes there's instant healing, sometimes there's bearing with suffering.

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Anyway, the summary chapter at the end of the book names five things that can happen in prayer for healing.

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Number one is what I call the instant heal.

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I have been the recipient of it.

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My wife and my son and my daughter have all been the recipient of it.

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I had a paralyzed face and actually the story wound up on CBN and they don't put stories on unless they're medically verified.

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So I had something called Ramsey-Hunt syndrome where my whole face was paralyzed because I had a shingles infection in my left ear and I was past the ordinary treatment window because they didn't discover it until almost a week or a little bit longer than a week.

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After this thing happened, the doctor said to me and this one isn't in the book, this is the CBN interview the doctor said to me you're never going to get your face.

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You might get 10-15%, but you're not going to get your face back.

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And I had been a preacher for 30 years.

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So it was called Ramsey-Hunt syndrome and what it meant was that this shingles thing went into my nerve and caused the nerve to expand into the sheath.

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Now, if you're young, like you're in your 20s, your odds are pretty good.

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So actually, justin Bieber had this in his 20s and he recovered completely, because if you have steroids and antivirals really quickly when you're young, it's relatively well, it's not easy but it's curable.

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And as you get past 30, it becomes less so.

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As you get past 40, it's a 50-50 shot.

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When you get into your 50s you almost have no chance.

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And I was 53 when the thing happened.

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Anyway, the bottom line was the doc said you're not going to speak again, you're going to have to look for some other kind of work.

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And my face paralyzed, from my eyebrow on my left side all the way down to the upper corner on my right side on my face, and I couldn't close my eyes.

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My taste sensations were funny.

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I remember having a piece of toast and it tasted like sugar.

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You know that kind of thing, some kind of neurological thing going on here.

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And when I was raced over to the doctor after two visits they told me that I'd never speak again.

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Now, that's a terrible thing for a preacher and it was my only means of livelihood and my wife was a teacher.

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Sorry, muscular dystrophy, the myotonic dystrophy form.

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So I'm somebody who believes in miracle and lives with the reality that the fallen world is here and there are people who are suffering from afflictions and God grants them one of these five pathways.

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But anyway, the bottom line was there was a lady in my church who prayed for me.

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Her name was Gail, and Gail is friends to this very day for lots and lots and lots of reasons.

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One of them is this story.

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But she fasted and prayed, came to see me and all kinds of people had come over and screamed scripture at me.

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That I already knew they were telling me that I had to buck up.

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That kind of thing.

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Oh, jesus is going to heal you.

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Just start naming your confession.

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Meanwhile I couldn't say anything, right?

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Anyway, she prayed and as she prayed she had a scripture.

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It was the story of the Apostle Paul at the end of the Acts.

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You know where he gets in a shipwreck and he goes on shore and a snake latches onto his wrist.

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You probably can record the story.

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Anyway, everybody on the island says, oh, he must have been a murderer.

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Justice is caught up with him.

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He's going to die.

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That's a venomous snake.

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He shakes the snake off and then they say, oh, he's a god.

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He's going to have it.

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Go from calling him a murderer to calling him a god.

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Anyway, that hand was the hand that started the revival, the hand that shook off the snake he prayed over Publius' father-in-law.

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Publius' father-in-law was instantly healed of dysentery and the whole island meets the Lord.

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Anyway, this lady quotes the scripture to me and she says you have been working excessively and I had been.

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There was a very severe situation that I had to sit in on for days and nights while somebody was dying, without family, and I was exhausted.

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I still had to maintain my routine of preaching, three services and pastoral care to others and so on.

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I was just fried.

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And this thing happened when I was very, very, very weary.

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Just after the man's funeral I buried him and he died a good old, ripe age.

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But he died quickly and I was in this room and he didn't have a lot of family.

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Anyway, bottom line was, after this I got this infection and they said it was Ramsey and I wasn't going to speak again.

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So this lady said this to me.

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Now nothing happened.

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When she said it, that was a Friday night.

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On Sunday.

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My wife said David, you can't go anywhere.

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The associates are covering the pulpit.

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Why don't we just go south and visit my cousin David, who's a preacher, and we have never been able to get to his church because he is on the same Sunday as you do.

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I said, oh, okay.

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So I said Liz, you're going to have to drive.

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I don't have it in me to drive.

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I'm sleeping 16 hours a day.

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So the two, two and a half hour drive south of where we were, got in the car and I leaned the recliner back and I had those cushion pillows around my head and I fell asleep, woke up in that town, went into the church and the pastor, whose name was also David, walked up to me and said what happened to you?

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And I said, oh, my face is paralyzed, I can't speak.

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I'm on the other corner.

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And he said well, can we gather the elders to pray for you after church?

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That's what the Bible says.

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I said, oh, thank you.

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So anyway, it was a beautiful service, it was a lovely testimony from somebody who was visiting and there was a good preach, solid word.

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But anyway, at the end Pastor David got up and said hey, my cousin's husband, david, who's a pastor, has a paralyzed face, it's would you please intercede for him.

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And they gathered the elders around me to start to pray.

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And at that moment I looked up and a lady walked in, an ally for church.

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She was living in a different time zone and she had moved over time zones to visit a friend and really want to go to church.

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She got the timer on by an hour because she.

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So she and she stands up in the church, at the back of the church, while the elders have gathered, after he has made his explanation.

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She enters after the explanation, so she didn't hear a thing.

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Has made his explanation, she enters after the explanation, so she didn't hear a thing.

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And she stands up and she says the enemy has taken advantage.

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You must shake this off, the very same words that my friend Gail said on the Friday, and when you do, it will be a testimony for the gospel here and around the world.

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Well, gail had said that on the Friday night they didn't know each other, they weren't related to each other, they weren't friends.

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There are things that Gail said on Friday.

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This woman said on Sunday in a church we had never been to before.

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So the goosebumps are going up and down my spine and I'm saying oh man, isn't that marvelous.

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But my jaw still didn't heal, my eye was still open, nothing was happening.

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So you know, I hit Tuesday morning after that, and on Tuesday morning, as I am taking my last bit of medication and nothing had done any change, the doc said you can try taking these meds.

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You're past the treatment window, but it's like giving you water It'll hydrate you but it's not going to do anything to heal this affliction.

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As on Tuesday morning I said to God that's it.

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I am beyond medicine.

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The only thing that will happen here is if you send a miracle.

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If not, I'm going to have to get a new kind of job.

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I'm going to have to learn how to work with my hands instead of my mouth or my speaking, visiting or whatever.

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And I am still utterly unable to have even energy.

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God have mercy.

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And I was sleeping 12 to 16 hours a day.

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And so I woke up.

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I went to bed.

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After I prayed the prayer, my wife woke me up for supper and suddenly I felt tinkling in the corner of the eyebrow that I hadn't been able to move for, I think, three weeks.

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And I was able to move it just a little tiny fraction, just talking.

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So I said get over here.

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So she came up and I tried to move it and she said yes, dear, not go to bed.

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So the next day I woke up in the morning, no change.

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And at seven o'clock at night, same time, I felt the same tingling in the corner of my eyebrow, like an hour after the dentist.

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You know, you bet the dentist had a needle.

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Anyway, I was able to open and close my eye for the first time in weeks.

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So I called her again and she came and she said something's happening.

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You don't usually get better at night.

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You get better in the morning.

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This is somebody's praying somewhere.

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And over the course of the next seven days all of my faiths came back.

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Now I was booked in to see the doctor the next week and he had already arranged to write medical notes for me so that I could make application for government programs for retraining, so I could have a career path, and so he had to officially sign off on this.

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So the following Tuesday I go into the doctor's office.

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He sits, I sit him down, he says David, how you doing?

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And I went like this blink my eye and I said doc, I'm fine, how are you?

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He said you can't do that, that's medically impossible.

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I said, yeah, it is, you have Ramsey-Hunt syndrome, you can't do that.

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I said yeah, it is, you have Ramsey-Hunt syndrome, you can't do that.

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I said I know I can't do that, but I can.

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And he said what happened.

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And so I told him the story I just told you about the scripture, about Gail praying that prayer, about the enemy taking advantage and shaking off the snake, and then the person repeating it on the Sunday, and I said I believe that the Lord Jesus is healed.

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Now this doctor sat back and he said look, I am a kind of part-time believer, I'm a lousy.

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My wife, she's a good Catholic.

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He said me, no, I'm not.

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And so he sat back and he said I have a lot of people of faith come into my office, lots and lots and lots, and all of them want the miracle and some of them claim it and most of them have a placebo effect and I have to treat them with medicine.

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In your case, I am prepared to admit that this is outside the realm of ordinary science.

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And he signed the note, and so I have a note for that and I have a note from my wife's miraculous healing from muscular dystrophy.

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And, to put this in perspective, I just got an antibiotic for my ear because I had an ear infection.

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So this medicine and miracle thing is intertwined.

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So I named five pathways instant cure and I didn't believe in this before, but I do now.

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Natural healing.

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I'll tell you why.

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When my wife had muscular dystrophy, if she damaged a muscle, it never came back and I knew at the end of my days I was going to be pushing that wheelchair, because this is the girl I love and this is the one I'm going to serve.

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I knew that After she was healed and she was healed miraculously in front of a crowd of 650 witnesses he wrote a note for her too, after he knew us five years.

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Anyway, she would heal.

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If a muscle was damaged after she was healed, the muscle tissue would regrow.

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Now I knew the before and I knew the after and I'm now convinced that what we call natural healing where you cut your finger and you wash it off and you put a bandage on top of it that's just as miraculous as the rest.

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The third is the pathway to a remedy where somebody has done research, and you probably know people just like this.

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My wife's sister had a neighbor next door who suffered from polio back in the day.

00:18:08.346 --> 00:18:09.450
She was vaccinated.

00:18:09.450 --> 00:18:10.152
The neighbor wasn't.

00:18:10.152 --> 00:18:10.712
The neighbor died.

00:18:10.712 --> 00:18:20.269
She made a decision that she would study medicine so that she could alleviate pain and suffering, because she didn't want people to go through what the neighbor did next door.

00:18:20.269 --> 00:18:32.643
I mean, there's all kinds of people with a story just like that and they've spent 20, 25, 30 years researching vaccines or researching how medical therapy works or an application for something, etc.

00:18:32.643 --> 00:18:38.963
Many of them are believers in Jesus, they love the Lord and they've given their lives to find one cure.

00:18:38.963 --> 00:18:44.480
If you get the affliction, do not turn away the gift of someone's sacrifice.

00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.207
So that's a pathway to a remedy.

00:18:47.807 --> 00:18:58.839
The fourth one is suffering without meaning, and this is where you pass through something and there is no explanation short of glory.

00:18:58.839 --> 00:19:01.923
Sometimes you get an explanation years after it happened.

00:19:01.923 --> 00:19:05.913
So the meaningless suffering of Joseph the patriarch turns into the salvation of two nations, egypt and Israel.

00:19:05.913 --> 00:19:11.546
So sometimes you get a hint, but you find that out, for you know how was it now, he was there 13 years.

00:19:11.546 --> 00:19:14.847
He had no idea what he passed through all that.

00:19:14.847 --> 00:19:15.549
Thank you very much.

00:19:15.549 --> 00:19:18.869
Right, so sometimes you have these meaningless things.

00:19:18.869 --> 00:19:21.128
The last is the miraculous crossing.

00:19:21.128 --> 00:19:24.683
Now, all five of those are in Scripture.

00:19:24.683 --> 00:19:25.644
All five of those are in scripture.

00:19:25.644 --> 00:19:26.646
All five of them.

00:19:26.646 --> 00:19:30.412
And all five of them sometimes intertwine and overlap.

00:19:31.313 --> 00:19:33.415
And uh, I did this at Cornerstone TV.

00:19:33.415 --> 00:19:40.188
I did an interview for them and I described it this way, and I've done that ever since then.

00:19:40.188 --> 00:19:40.690
So here's what I did.

00:19:40.690 --> 00:19:41.914
I said look, scientific endeavor works like this.

00:19:41.914 --> 00:19:44.867
You have, you have, um, an event.

00:19:44.867 --> 00:19:51.432
You have somebody who makes a decision to figure out how the event works, whether it's a medical thing or whether it's something else.

00:19:51.432 --> 00:19:57.721
They put together a hypothesis and they test this thing to see whether or not their idea about this is true.

00:19:57.721 --> 00:20:08.874
And after they've tested it sufficiently, they come to a trajectory where they say, well, this particular kind of medicine works on this particular kind of affliction, and they labor at it, and that's called the scientific enterprise.

00:20:08.874 --> 00:20:13.250
It's limited by the ability of the human to reason and it goes in this path like this.

00:20:14.039 --> 00:20:23.628
Now, faith is a relationship with Jesus of Nazareth and his Holy Spirit, and God sends the Spirit, and sometimes a miraculous intervention happens and sometimes it doesn't.

00:20:23.628 --> 00:20:25.593
And here's what happens with the two pathways.

00:20:25.593 --> 00:20:28.288
This one is believing in God being guided by faith.

00:20:28.288 --> 00:20:46.007
This one is experimenting with what's already in the creation, and every now and then they overlap like this, and then sometimes they separate out, and then sometimes there's no answer and the faith moves forward and the suffering continues, and sometimes the suffering is alleviated by that miraculous intervention, and sometimes there's a combo.

00:20:46.799 --> 00:20:50.911
Sometimes there is oh, I have received a therapy that is giving me miraculous improvement.

00:20:50.911 --> 00:20:51.612
This is amazing.

00:20:51.612 --> 00:21:00.109
And then suddenly there's an instant heal, or maybe there is a pathway to a remedy, and it works for six months and the next thing you know, you had significant improvement.

00:21:00.109 --> 00:21:07.924
And there comes a moment where your faith shifts and you get the instant heal, and sometimes you walked in the power of a miracle.

00:21:07.924 --> 00:21:13.131
And then the end of your days has come and your assignment on earth is completed and God takes you.

00:21:13.131 --> 00:21:15.469
And no, everybody's surprised by it.

00:21:15.469 --> 00:21:19.625
But regardless of this, all five of those are in the Bible.

00:21:19.625 --> 00:21:21.570
No, all five of them.

00:21:21.570 --> 00:21:28.851
I wanted to unpack that in the book so that people don't get stuck in one and don't allow the other.

00:21:28.871 --> 00:21:37.590
Right, what does the ministry of Jesus show us about praying for healing in modern times?

00:21:38.692 --> 00:21:40.275
Oh, okay, well, sure, listen in the book.

00:21:40.275 --> 00:21:45.573
So listen, there's a school out there that says that God stopped doing that with the death of the apostles.

00:21:45.573 --> 00:21:53.051
And so I searched the New Testament for a biblical basis in the New Testament for the prayer for healing.

00:21:53.051 --> 00:21:54.515
And here's what I discovered.

00:21:54.515 --> 00:21:55.803
Now this is an important.

00:21:55.803 --> 00:21:59.712
It's going to take me a bit of teaching to get there, but I want to unpack the thinking out there.

00:21:59.712 --> 00:22:00.945
So we know this.

00:22:01.579 --> 00:22:07.333
In the book of Galatians, paul the apostle calls James the Lord's brother an apostle.

00:22:07.333 --> 00:22:10.469
He actually says it in chapter one.

00:22:10.469 --> 00:22:14.987
I visited Peter and I didn't see any apostles except James the Lord's brother.

00:22:14.987 --> 00:22:17.646
So that's real clear.

00:22:17.646 --> 00:22:22.087
And the book of James was written by Jesus' half-brother James.

00:22:22.087 --> 00:22:30.866
He was the leader of the Jerusalem church, he was Jewish to the toenails and he was the conservative guy who said we've got to figure out this circumcision debate.

00:22:30.866 --> 00:22:32.406
He was the guy who wanted to do that.

00:22:32.500 --> 00:22:39.269
So we know James in his early days was antagonistic to Jesus.

00:22:39.269 --> 00:22:48.011
In fact, in Mark 3, four brothers of Jesus plus some family members, probably sisters, show up to take him out.

00:22:48.011 --> 00:22:53.669
They don't want him there, they think he's going to get killed or something.

00:22:53.669 --> 00:23:04.972
And then in the sixth chapter, all of his family shows up in the synagogue and he can't do the miraculous acts of power that he wants to because of the collective unbelief of his own family.

00:23:04.972 --> 00:23:06.816
All right now, just put this in perspective.

00:23:06.816 --> 00:23:13.362
Acts of power that he wants to because of the collective unbelief of his own family All right now, just put this in perspective.

00:23:13.362 --> 00:23:19.980
This means that post-resurrection we have a picture of Mary and all of the four boys there's four boys named in Mark praying with Mary to Jesus post-.

00:23:19.980 --> 00:23:20.582
Resurrection.

00:23:20.582 --> 00:23:38.788
Here's what happened Between the cross and the resurrection the family said yes to Jesus being Messiah and started to pray to him, and so the original 12 apostles did not include James but as an enemy of Jesus until post-resurrection.

00:23:39.932 --> 00:23:43.365
Then we find out from the apostle Paul he's an apostle.

00:23:43.365 --> 00:23:51.392
That means he's a mega leader, he's a big guy, he's one of the guys who writes scripture and he wrote the book of James.

00:23:51.392 --> 00:24:06.708
Now that means that someone who was not one of the 12, who knew Jesus intimately, is training other people in his church, called elders, in something called prayer for healing, with the expectation that the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick.

00:24:06.708 --> 00:24:15.490
This means the New Testament says that we are to practice prayer for healing, even if we're not among the original apostolic band.

00:24:15.490 --> 00:24:19.645
So I wanted to unpack that before I went any further.

00:24:19.865 --> 00:24:28.032
The oldest apostle to remain alive and die a natural death was John, the son of Zebedee, and at the end of his days he wrote 1 to 3 John and he wrote Revelation.

00:24:28.032 --> 00:24:37.576
In 1 to 3 John the apostle says this who says he abides in him must walk as he.

00:24:37.576 --> 00:24:49.167
And we know he wrote the Gospel of John toward the end of his days Most scholars think it's 80, 80 to 90, somewhere in that range and that John died on the Isle of Patmos.

00:24:49.167 --> 00:24:56.048
And in the middle of that Gospel you have a saying of Jesus about greater works will you do than the ones that I do.

00:24:56.048 --> 00:24:57.747
It's found in John 14.

00:24:57.747 --> 00:25:06.909
And it's very, very, very clear contextually from the material that it does not refer to increased capacity for evangelistic rallies.

00:25:06.909 --> 00:25:09.910
It doesn't refer to scientific advancement.

00:25:09.910 --> 00:25:16.246
It refers to the practice of miraculous signs and wonders that are assigned to people as God wants them to receive.

00:25:16.246 --> 00:25:29.883
So I think the New Testament, through John and through James, and I also think through Paul, makes very clear those gifts of the Spirit are not to be restricted to the first generation and the apostle group.

00:25:29.883 --> 00:25:39.182
Okay, so let's make that, because James who is not part of the 12, is training another generation that's following him to do it so they can take it for it and it gets recorded in Scripture.

00:25:39.664 --> 00:25:57.772
So I personally believe that if you're sick, you should do exactly as the New Testament says you should call the elders of the church and in context, it wasn't a group of people who were gathered to satisfy the IRS, it's called Revenue Canada up here.

00:25:57.772 --> 00:26:12.003
I'm a Canadian, you have the IRS down there and what we do to get charitable status in our two countries is to create a framework that satisfies due diligence for IRS or Revenue Canada, that we're practicing what we preach In the early church.

00:26:12.003 --> 00:26:13.548
Of course they weren't looking for a tax break.

00:26:13.548 --> 00:26:18.665
They would make someone who was spiritually mature the leader of a house group.

00:26:18.665 --> 00:26:28.948
They would call that person an elder, because there were no church buildings and anybody who was a teacher inside a house group, that's the person that was the elder.

00:26:28.948 --> 00:26:33.865
So you'd gather these and then you would ask for confession of sin.

00:26:33.865 --> 00:26:36.854
It's a very interesting thing.

00:26:36.854 --> 00:26:43.170
The confession of sin is linked to the healing and then they would wait on the lord and pray.

00:26:43.170 --> 00:26:45.803
Now I'm going to name a pet peeve that I address in the book.

00:26:46.805 --> 00:26:49.571
I have been I don't know to how many prayer meetings.

00:26:49.571 --> 00:26:52.326
I can't begin to tell you the number of prayer meetings I've been to.

00:26:52.326 --> 00:26:54.633
I've been a pastor since 1983.

00:26:54.633 --> 00:26:58.224
Now, if there's one of those a week, my heavens, you know how many that is.

00:26:58.224 --> 00:27:01.529
But apart from that, there were many more than one a week.

00:27:01.529 --> 00:27:09.656
So, but every prayer meeting I go to there'd be a stalwart who'd name all the people who were sick and they'd name all the needs of the church.

00:27:09.656 --> 00:27:19.111
And Susie needs a job, and you know, bill just got laid off and Susie's going through a divorce, fred's got cancer, they, they named these things and then they'd say let's pray for them.

00:27:19.111 --> 00:27:24.401
And we would.

00:27:24.401 --> 00:27:25.083
You know we'd pray for them.

00:27:25.083 --> 00:27:29.298
But you know, then we'd go back the next week and name the same people and then they would pray this.

00:27:29.298 --> 00:27:36.970
They would say oh Lord, fred's got cancer, Heal him if it be your.

00:27:36.970 --> 00:27:38.826
And I prayed that prayer.

00:27:38.885 --> 00:27:39.749
I wrote a book on Lord's Prayer.

00:27:39.749 --> 00:27:45.029
It's sitting right here, this one here, anyway, of course, one of the phrases is your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

00:27:45.029 --> 00:27:53.919
And so I decided to do a word study on the word will in the New Testament.

00:27:53.919 --> 00:27:54.980
Do you know?

00:27:54.980 --> 00:27:56.144
Not a single person prays that way.

00:27:56.144 --> 00:27:58.170
Nobody prays like that in the Bible.

00:27:58.170 --> 00:28:01.540
There's one.

00:28:01.560 --> 00:28:17.885
The only parallel that comes close is the story of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane, where he already knows what the will is, because Elijah and Moses had told him he's going to get killed, it's going to be bad, they're going to whip you, they're going to beat you, they're going to mock you, they're going to put you on a cross.

00:28:17.885 --> 00:28:23.568
He knows the whole story and he doesn't say oh God, you know, if it be your will.

00:28:23.568 --> 00:28:32.392
He says I know the will, I don't like this.

00:28:32.392 --> 00:28:40.501
Will, please, if it's possible, change the outcome so that we can accomplish this purpose a different way.

00:28:40.501 --> 00:28:42.262
Nevertheless, not my will, but yours be done.

00:28:42.262 --> 00:28:52.771
That's very different than what I see in most prayer meetings where it says well, we don't know if it's going to get better or not, but, oh God, to give you an escape clause, we'll say, if it be your will, no, no, no.

00:28:52.771 --> 00:28:55.574
So there's nothing else in the Bible that comes close.

00:28:55.614 --> 00:29:05.907
There's one reference in 1 John where it says this brothers and sisters, we have confidence before God, knowing that when we pray according to his will.

00:29:05.907 --> 00:29:06.509
He hears us.

00:29:06.509 --> 00:29:12.569
Now that could be interpreted the way that we do it in modern prayer meetings, but it's not John's point.

00:29:12.569 --> 00:29:24.465
The apostle is saying I know what God wants us to pray and we are going to follow suit by praying what is in harmony with his purposes, so we can see an answer.

00:29:24.465 --> 00:29:29.230
It's a very different way of praying if it be your will.

00:29:30.259 --> 00:29:36.987
So when you do the James 5 thing, you pray something called the prayer thing, and here's how I do it.

00:29:36.987 --> 00:29:39.769
I'm happy to be corrected or improved or whatever.

00:29:39.769 --> 00:29:43.230
If you tell me a better way of doing it, I will put it in the next book.

00:29:43.230 --> 00:29:46.125
I'll quote you, I'll put your name in there.

00:29:46.125 --> 00:29:58.646
But anyway, what I do when I'm praying for the sick is we gather around the afflicted person and if it's a female, you don't touch her unless she gives you permission, because there's abuse victims out there.

00:29:58.646 --> 00:30:10.567
Actually, you shouldn't even do it with males anymore either, just because the culture is just so litigious that everybody wants to sue you, or they're wounded because they've been taken advantage of or abused or something, and a touch will hurt them.

00:30:10.567 --> 00:30:11.008
You know.

00:30:11.409 --> 00:30:24.449
Anyway, the bottom line is you ask and after you ask, if they say yes, you put your hand on a location that is what I call safe their shoulders, their elbow and their head, or something like this and then you wait.

00:30:24.449 --> 00:30:31.306
And then, after you ask them what the issue is, and one of them will say well, you know, I just got this diagnosis.

00:30:31.306 --> 00:30:32.269
I'm in a terrible way.

00:30:32.269 --> 00:30:39.892
I got three kids, my husband can't work, I am trying to raise these kids and now I have this terrible diagnosis.

00:30:39.892 --> 00:30:42.123
Of course, your heart goes out to them.

00:30:42.123 --> 00:30:45.429
When you hear the story, you ask permission if you can touch them.

00:30:45.429 --> 00:30:45.829
You do.

00:30:46.029 --> 00:30:47.211
And then here's how I start.

00:30:47.211 --> 00:30:57.200
I will say and I'll just use the name out of the Jane here has said she's suffering from this.

00:30:57.200 --> 00:31:01.403
We stand with her.

00:31:01.403 --> 00:31:02.648
Jesus, how do you want us to pray?

00:31:02.648 --> 00:31:08.420
And then you wait, and as you wait, there are signals that the Lord wants to accomplish something.

00:31:08.420 --> 00:31:11.968
That happens not just in one person, but in all the intercessors who are praying with you.

00:31:11.968 --> 00:31:25.748
The peace rises, fiery peace, fire presence rises inside of you, and if that testimony of the Spirit occurs, you will feel something inside of you.

00:31:25.748 --> 00:31:30.345
While this is occurring Now, some people have different experiences than others, so let me be clear here.

00:31:30.859 --> 00:31:32.867
There are people who simply pray out of obedience.

00:31:32.867 --> 00:31:34.346
They feel nothing and something happens.

00:31:34.346 --> 00:31:39.710
But with me I notice an increase of three identity markers that are named by the Apostle Paul.

00:31:39.710 --> 00:31:41.645
That's a sweet walk with Jesus.

00:31:41.645 --> 00:31:42.721
Peace.

00:31:42.721 --> 00:31:54.990
This is the internal serenity Joy, which is internal celebration despite external circumstance, which is a conviction that something good is about to happen.

00:31:54.990 --> 00:32:02.028
Focus, where suddenly all you can see is the person and faith to believe that something's gonna take place.

00:32:02.028 --> 00:32:04.682
And with me, sometimes I feel fiery heat.

00:32:05.423 --> 00:32:07.268
There's one lady whose body just starts to.

00:32:07.268 --> 00:32:10.202
I was just in Cambodia praying with people and this.

00:32:10.202 --> 00:32:13.875
There's a couple that's directing the field house there.

00:32:13.875 --> 00:32:14.959
And the lady.

00:32:14.959 --> 00:32:19.229
She gets filled up with compassion Whenever something is about to happen.

00:32:19.229 --> 00:32:24.471
She just starts to feel marvelous compassion for the person she's praying for.

00:32:24.471 --> 00:32:28.270
But any one of those signals will do, and I suspect there's more in the New Testament.

00:32:28.270 --> 00:32:39.972
But when I notice those signals start to rise, ideas start popping into my head as I'm praying and I'll say you know, as I'm praying for you, I see this little girl.

00:32:39.972 --> 00:32:42.840
Something bad happened when she was five.

00:32:42.840 --> 00:32:45.182
Does that resonate with you?

00:32:45.182 --> 00:32:48.105
Is this something that could be true in your life?

00:32:48.105 --> 00:32:55.512
And if the recipient of the prayer responds positively, she begins to weep, or she asks a question.

00:32:55.512 --> 00:32:59.176
Or how did you know you ask these kinds of questions?

00:32:59.176 --> 00:33:06.727
Then you proceed because that's God praying through you, that's the Holy Spirit praying through you to accomplish something.

00:33:07.248 --> 00:33:21.023
I remember once I was in an elder meeting and there was a guy there who had been a worker overseas and he'd come back to Canada and he got a secular job because his wife wanted to work for a ministry and so she was now doing the ministry and he was working secular, we'd pay bills, kind of thing.

00:33:21.023 --> 00:33:37.490
He came out of the board and we were praying for each elder at this retreat and I remember looking at him and he said you know, there's a young man who works in my company and he's had no dad, he's had no ability to, he doesn't know what he believes.

00:33:37.490 --> 00:33:43.930
And I looked at him and suddenly I just felt overwhelming compassion for this young man.

00:33:43.930 --> 00:33:46.125
And I looked at the guy.

00:33:46.125 --> 00:33:46.846
His name was Jerry.

00:33:46.846 --> 00:33:51.550
I said, jerry, when you lock eyes with him you feel like a father to a son.

00:33:51.550 --> 00:33:52.251
Is that correct?

00:33:52.251 --> 00:33:54.567
He said how did you know?

00:33:54.567 --> 00:33:56.444
I said I didn't.

00:33:56.444 --> 00:34:02.787
I said you keep bumping into him when you're not planning to bump into him in the community, outside after you've done your work.

00:34:02.787 --> 00:34:04.103
He said how did you know?

00:34:04.103 --> 00:34:05.025
I said I didn't know.

00:34:05.025 --> 00:34:07.230
And I said you have been a son.

00:34:07.230 --> 00:34:08.945
I'm going to pray this in all confidence.

00:34:08.945 --> 00:34:20.282
I believe the Lord has put you beside him so you can be like a father to his son and teach him that the emptiness in his spirit around relationship can be satisfied with them.

00:34:20.282 --> 00:34:28.347
He began to cry like a baby as we were talking about a 55-year-old man, right, a 20-year-old kid, right.

00:34:28.347 --> 00:34:43.170
It was just starting out in life and we wound up praying for that young lad to have the emotional deficits in his life from his broken parents' marriage and all the trouble he went through, satisfied by engagement with Jerry's family.

00:34:43.170 --> 00:34:44.853
That's exactly what happened.

00:34:44.853 --> 00:34:52.233
Now that's emotional healing, but it was emotional healing dealing with the healthy one, being a role model and a friend.

00:34:52.233 --> 00:35:03.105
So you listen to the Spirit rather than have a one-way chat where you demand of God the way I would describe it.

00:35:03.144 --> 00:35:07.146
I'm going to give you the biblical basis for this now, because I think people need to know that it's biblical right.

00:35:07.146 --> 00:35:10.043
So the gospel is called a chiastic document.

00:35:10.043 --> 00:35:14.472
It means that there's big truth at the beginning and that's Jesus is God.

00:35:14.472 --> 00:35:18.090
There's big truth at the end Jesus is raised.

00:35:18.090 --> 00:35:21.342
Those are the two big things that go on inside the gospel of John.

00:35:21.342 --> 00:35:29.972
And if you clap your hands and rub your hands together in the middle it says this my sheep hear my voice.

00:35:29.972 --> 00:35:34.784
That's the dynamic center of the book, right there.

00:35:34.784 --> 00:35:39.222
The other thing that the book says is that he's not just the spirit baptizer, he's the lamb.

00:35:39.222 --> 00:35:41.869
Okay, so behold the lamb.

00:35:41.869 --> 00:35:47.403
That means we're not sheepies alone, we're sheepies being led by the lamb.

00:35:47.403 --> 00:35:49.329
Got that Now?

00:35:49.329 --> 00:35:56.168
Jesus, as the lamb, all the way through John's gospel, always hears the voice before he does a miraculous act of power.

00:35:57.510 --> 00:36:04.532
In fact, I think it's like eight or nine times in John's gospel where he says I can do nothing on my own initiative.

00:36:04.532 --> 00:36:06.927
First time, you see, that is in John chapter five.

00:36:06.927 --> 00:36:20.248
It's around verse 18, 19, somewhere in there where he's just cured the man at the pool of Bethesda who's been 38 years sick and he's carrying his pallet on the Sunday you know, on Sabbath day, it'll be Saturday in Jewish culture, anyway the Pharisees say how come you're doing that?

00:36:20.248 --> 00:36:21.590
He said I don't know some guy.

00:36:21.590 --> 00:36:23.672
Some guy told me to pick up my.

00:36:23.672 --> 00:36:25.795
He didn't even know who Jesus was.

00:36:25.795 --> 00:36:28.467
So Jesus finds him and says that was me.

00:36:28.467 --> 00:36:34.371
The Pharisees find Jesus and say how come you told him to pick up his pallet on the Sabbath?

00:36:34.371 --> 00:36:40.949
Jesus then says this amazing thing I can do nothing on my own initiative.

00:36:40.949 --> 00:36:45.088
As I see, I obey, as I hear I obey.

00:36:45.088 --> 00:36:48.626
He says this and you follow it through John's gospel eight or nine times.

00:36:48.726 --> 00:36:50.050
It refers to his teaching ministry.

00:36:50.050 --> 00:36:51.684
It refers to his resurrection, judgment stuff.

00:36:51.684 --> 00:36:53.068
It refers to his cross.

00:36:53.068 --> 00:36:54.172
It refers to the incarnation.

00:36:54.172 --> 00:36:56.465
It refers to everything Jesus did.

00:36:56.465 --> 00:37:04.900
Now he's the lamb who hears the voice to accomplish the miraculous signs and wonders by listening to the divine initiative.

00:37:04.900 --> 00:37:07.304
Jesus is God.

00:37:07.304 --> 00:37:08.608
Jesus is raised.

00:37:08.608 --> 00:37:10.411
My sheep hear my voice.

00:37:10.411 --> 00:37:19.172
Behold the lamb who hears the voice and he says the works that I do, you shall do, and greater works shall you do.

00:37:19.172 --> 00:37:30.172
But the model is the same we're to cultivate hearing the voice of the shepherd in the same way as Jesus the Lamb heard the voice of God, the Father.

00:37:30.172 --> 00:37:34.163
That's the theological basis for this whole thing.

00:37:34.163 --> 00:37:34.903
Now you know this.

00:37:34.903 --> 00:37:36.789
John wrote that at the end of his life.

00:37:37.951 --> 00:37:40.445
He was on the island of Patmos when he wrote the Gospel of John.

00:37:40.445 --> 00:37:43.101
He wrote Revelation and he wrote 1 to 3 John there.

00:37:43.101 --> 00:38:01.722
These books were done at the end of his days, as the final voice of the original generation of the twelve apostles, and his word was not the gifts have ceased, his word was to record Jesus saying we're going to do them right on through to the close of time laid out in James 5.

00:38:01.722 --> 00:38:02.664
Now I'll tell you what we do.

00:38:02.664 --> 00:38:10.469
There's a conviction that if you pray once, you're supposed to stop, but actually James doesn't say that.

00:38:10.469 --> 00:38:15.304
James says the example is Elijah praying for rain.

00:38:15.304 --> 00:38:24.755
Okay, and so if you read James 5, it moves on down and it gets to this part where it says he prayed that it would not rain and the rain ceased, and then he prayed again and it started to rain.

00:38:24.755 --> 00:38:27.521
Well, that sounds really easy.

00:38:27.521 --> 00:38:29.664
That's not what happened in the life of Elijah.

00:38:29.684 --> 00:38:33.068
You've got to go back to 1 Kings, 17, 18, 19 to get the whole story.

00:38:33.068 --> 00:38:42.764
He rebukes the king, he hides by a ravine for six months, he stays in Zarephath and lives by miracle with the widow of Zarephath, raises a little boy from the dead.

00:38:42.764 --> 00:38:44.253
Then he comes back and he confronts the king.

00:38:44.253 --> 00:38:46.086
Then he calls down fire from the sky.

00:38:46.086 --> 00:38:55.389
Then he kills the priests of Baal and then he prays more, and I believe it was a three and a half year prayer because he doesn't feast.

00:38:55.389 --> 00:38:57.706
He doesn't eat except the angel food.

00:38:57.706 --> 00:39:05.509
He lets Ahab feast, he stays in the fast, eating nothing except the food the angels provide.

00:39:05.568 --> 00:39:27.711
While he prays and here's the point he doesn't pray once, he doesn't pray twice, he doesn't pray three times or four times or five times or six times, he prays seven times, in complete confidence that God had already set the thing into motion.

00:39:27.711 --> 00:39:29.813
He was commanded.

00:39:29.813 --> 00:39:36.257
It said actually beginning of 18, it says go and confront Ahab and I will send rain upon the land, which also sounds really easy.

00:39:36.257 --> 00:39:39.344
Well, he goes and he confronts Ahab.

00:39:39.344 --> 00:39:41.289
There's a whole lot more to the story.

00:39:41.289 --> 00:39:47.751
And then when Ahab admits that the God of Israel is the real God and everybody's saying what do we do now?

00:39:47.751 --> 00:39:49.643
He says go up and eat and drink.

00:39:49.643 --> 00:39:54.411
I hear the sound of a heavy roaring.

00:39:54.411 --> 00:39:56.655
He actually says that.

00:39:56.655 --> 00:40:02.753
The point is he was commanded by the Lord, in whatever fashion God told him.

00:40:02.753 --> 00:40:05.329
I'm not sure how it happened that he was supposed to do this.

00:40:06.039 --> 00:40:18.760
And when he's in the moment where fire has come down from the sky and the king has repented, at least temporarily, and the people are feasting, he hears a sound internally about how he is to pray.

00:40:18.760 --> 00:40:23.731
Then he takes his servant, goes up on the mountain and he prays, not once.

00:40:23.731 --> 00:40:37.329
He cooperates with the divine initiative in praying for the rain, and that's the story that James uses when he tells the elders to pray for the people who are sick.

00:40:37.329 --> 00:40:41.369
In other words, if you don't see results in the first prayer, don't stop.

00:40:41.369 --> 00:40:44.367
You can wait before the Lord.

00:40:44.367 --> 00:40:53.985
And what he does is he waits, and then he prays a second time and sends a servant to check, and then he prays a third time and sends a servant to check, probably 20 minutes each time.

00:40:53.985 --> 00:40:56.068
Seven times 20 is 140 minutes, that's two them.

00:40:56.068 --> 00:40:56.275
Probably 20 minutes each time.

00:40:56.275 --> 00:40:59.954
Seven times 20 is 140 minutes, that's two hours and 20 minutes before the lord.

00:40:59.954 --> 00:41:02.019
You know, I'm just making an assumption.

00:41:02.019 --> 00:41:03.463
Maybe it was shorter, maybe it was longer, I don't know.

00:41:03.784 --> 00:41:27.456
The point is that that that is that's the paradigm that james uses to describe the prayer for healing process that the elders are to engage in Perseverant pleading and listening, rooted in confession, inside the framework of the community, using the example of Elijah's repetitious prayer to pray the rain in.

00:41:27.456 --> 00:41:31.402
That's the way we're supposed to pray for healing.

00:41:31.402 --> 00:41:32.222
Does that make sense to you?

00:41:32.222 --> 00:41:36.666
Yeah, I know you've had your own medical issues, and so have I.

00:41:36.666 --> 00:41:38.889
I mean, I've got a handicapped daughter.

00:41:38.889 --> 00:41:39.210
I do.

00:41:39.210 --> 00:41:40.490
So I'll just show you something.

00:41:40.490 --> 00:41:45.056
This is my healing prayer book and this is published by Whitaker House, so you can get it anywhere books are sold.

00:41:45.056 --> 00:41:56.643
But if you look at the very back of the book, you will see a picture of my daughter in a wheelchair and she's walking our dog.

00:41:56.643 --> 00:41:59.987
Okay, and that's what she would do to get herself out of the house.

00:41:59.987 --> 00:42:05.244
So she has received remarkable improvement, but she's not been healed.

00:42:06.188 --> 00:42:15.034
Now, inside the same book, I tell the story of my wife's miraculous cure for muscular dystrophy, and it was a process followed by an instant cure.

00:42:15.034 --> 00:42:22.740
So we had prayed all through the years and, of course, we gave up After 20 years of getting no you kind of figure, maybe it's no.

00:42:22.740 --> 00:42:24.523
So we gave up.

00:42:24.523 --> 00:42:25.326
But here's what happened.

00:42:25.326 --> 00:42:27.971
Both she and I made a decision.

00:42:27.971 --> 00:42:32.483
We would seek the healer, not the healing.

00:42:32.483 --> 00:42:39.175
So with that decision in place, we said okay, jesus, our strength is diminishing.

00:42:39.175 --> 00:42:43.451
We have less capacity now than we did two or three or four or five years ago.

00:42:43.451 --> 00:42:44.903
It's going to get worse as we get older.

00:42:44.903 --> 00:42:56.148
Would you please show us how we can serve you with our diminishing capacity so that when we're done we can look you in the eye and say we did what you asked us and we prayed that and we meant it in all sincerity.

00:42:56.148 --> 00:42:59.911
The irony was she and I would pray for other people.

00:42:59.911 --> 00:43:02.369
They'd get the instant heal and she's declining.

00:43:02.369 --> 00:43:03.865
It's a really crazy kind of thing.

00:43:04.721 --> 00:43:33.422
I entered into a partnership with two American churches, one from New York State, one from Atlanta, georgia, to help North Uganda rebuild, and Uganda had been ravaged by the madness of Yigit Yedmin and Joseph Kony, these terrible, terrible guys, and I met people whose noses were cut off, whose tongues were cut out, one eye gouged out, hands were gone Terrible stuff that Kony in particular had done and they wanted.

00:43:33.422 --> 00:43:35.210
Yigit Yedmin had been gone.

00:43:35.210 --> 00:43:36.605
Now there was a new president.

00:43:36.605 --> 00:43:38.641
His wife's a born-again girl.

00:43:38.641 --> 00:43:40.407
He wanted to establish law and order.

00:43:40.407 --> 00:43:42.561
He's still a bit of a dictator, but he's a benevolent one.

00:43:42.561 --> 00:43:44.327
He's kinder, you know.

00:43:44.327 --> 00:43:47.860
Anyway, they're rebuilding and churches had no education.

00:43:48.000 --> 00:43:51.025
Now the area I went to 20 years, no school.

00:43:51.025 --> 00:43:53.231
20 years, no dental care.

00:43:53.231 --> 00:43:55.496
20 years, no medical doctor.

00:43:55.496 --> 00:43:57.380
20 years, no education.

00:43:57.380 --> 00:44:00.085
I mean we're talking about a society with nothing.

00:44:00.085 --> 00:44:02.672
If you could read, you'd become the leader.

00:44:02.672 --> 00:44:04.382
That's all there was to it.

00:44:04.382 --> 00:44:13.264
And so, whatever the issue was, whether it was the town mayor, whether it was the leader of some society, whether it was the church pastor, whatever you could read, you'd become the leader.

00:44:13.264 --> 00:44:31.684
So they were starting to learn to read and that church in Atlanta organized for the other American guy and myself to come and help them and I set up a process of three one-week intensives and actually I wrote the book on the Lord's Prayer to give to them.

00:44:31.684 --> 00:44:32.567
That's what I did.

00:44:32.567 --> 00:44:34.612
I wanted them to have a training tool.00:44:34.612 --> 00:44:46.090


So when it was done, the bishop who organized that wanted to come to my church and he flew in and we paid for his airfare, because he's from Uganda, he's poor.00:44:46.090 --> 00:44:49.206


I thought I was going to get fired.00:44:51.001 --> 00:44:57.347


He was so tribal leader, ugandan, you know what I'm saying Barking orders, telling people what to do.00:44:57.347 --> 00:45:00.648


He was the head of the tribe, kind of thing you know.00:45:00.648 --> 00:45:02.467


And the culture was very different.00:45:02.467 --> 00:45:03.746


It was a tribal society.00:45:03.746 --> 00:45:07.971


So what the leader of the tribe said, everybody else said yes to, even if they didn't want to.00:45:07.971 --> 00:45:15.268


Virtue is an individualistic culture, like a Canadian or American, where everybody just does what they please and you elect your leader rather than follow him.00:45:15.268 --> 00:45:17.632


Or American, where everybody just does what they please and you elect your leader rather than follow him.00:45:17.632 --> 00:45:18.693


You don't like him, you throw him out.00:45:18.693 --> 00:45:23.103


Anyway, the bottom line is this guy came into my church, he meets me at the airport.00:45:23.103 --> 00:45:28.762


He says now, david, I don't know what it is, every time I pray for your church, the Lord says I should be really gentle.00:45:28.762 --> 00:45:30.503


Does that make sense to you?00:45:30.503 --> 00:45:32.844


I said, oh, yes, it does.00:45:32.844 --> 00:45:35.885


So he's in the pulpit Now.00:45:36.025 --> 00:45:39.349


In those days I had three services on the weekend, actually five.00:45:39.349 --> 00:45:45.112


We had an off-site campus and we had a Filipino church plant that met and spoken to Calong, right.00:45:45.112 --> 00:45:52.978


Anyway, we had these five services, but the main speaker would speak at three and then we had alternating times with the other two, the country campus.00:45:52.978 --> 00:45:57.471


So anyway, we had these three services.00:45:57.471 --> 00:45:58.539


They were all combined together for this.00:45:58.539 --> 00:45:59.708


The Saturday night was the smallest.00:45:59.708 --> 00:46:01.487


We had about 200 people there.00:46:01.487 --> 00:46:04.507


The Sunday morning was about 300 at 9 o'clock.00:46:04.507 --> 00:46:08.827


The Saturday night was I want to sleep in and I'm going to work, I'm going to take the day off.00:46:08.827 --> 00:46:13.222


The Sunday morning was what I call classical evangelical conservative.00:46:13.222 --> 00:46:16.570


Give me three hymns, three points in a poem and I'm out of here, right.00:46:16.570 --> 00:46:23.289


And then the 11 o'clockers were the ones who were more charismatically inclined, wanted to dance in church and wave their arms and that kind.00:46:23.289 --> 00:46:25.126


So we had all three of those kinds of congregations.00:46:25.699 --> 00:46:31.288


Anyway, it comes to the first one, saturday night, and he tells deliverance from death war stories.00:46:31.288 --> 00:46:37.161


Everybody's excited, they all text their friends stories.00:46:37.161 --> 00:46:38.585


Everybody's excited, they all text their friends.00:46:38.585 --> 00:46:41.114


And they walk up to me and the bishop and they said listen, tell more stories tomorrow.00:46:41.114 --> 00:46:41.898


We want more stories tomorrow.00:46:41.898 --> 00:46:42.981


We're coming tomorrow morning.00:46:42.981 --> 00:46:49.043


So they show up at nine o'clock because they're fascinated by this guy who tells more deliverance from death, war stories.00:46:49.043 --> 00:46:53.001


And as he's telling these stories, of course the numbers keep swelling.00:46:53.001 --> 00:46:57.507


And now the nine o'clockers want to go to the 11th, and the 11th was our full service, right.00:46:57.507 --> 00:47:00.849


So we have this overpacked capacity thing.00:47:00.849 --> 00:47:10.547


We got about 650 people in a sanctuary that seats 450 people lined up along the walls and up and down the stairs and, oh man, it was just people everywhere.00:47:10.547 --> 00:47:14.023


And we had spill out into the hallway with broadcasting, into the back center, that kind of thing.00:47:14.023 --> 00:47:19.507


And he and we had spill out into the hallway with broadcasting, into the back center, that kind of thing, and I'm sitting on the platform looking at my wife who's sitting two rows down.00:47:19.849 --> 00:47:31.360


Now let me just give you the background For 20 years she's been unable to raise her hands above her shoulders because of the muscular dystrophy it's called FSH muscular dystrophy.00:47:31.380 --> 00:47:39.003


In fact it's become famous now because your Lululemon founder has it and he's made a big donation two years ago to find a cure for FSH.00:47:39.003 --> 00:47:53.329


So when she climbed a stair she would have to take hold of her leg and lift it to the stair, grab the banister with two hands and pull herself up to the next level, balance the other leg and then repeat the procedure until she'd get up the stairs.00:47:53.329 --> 00:47:58.072


So we were about to look for a one-floor home because there had no cure.00:47:58.072 --> 00:48:00.273


And there was no cure.00:48:00.273 --> 00:48:08.376


There was only treatments to alleviate pain or make walking possible or something, and the prayer had not had its effect.00:48:08.376 --> 00:48:10.498


She had not been healed.00:48:10.498 --> 00:48:17.061


And so we made this decision to look around for a one-floor home.00:48:17.061 --> 00:48:32.934


And this bishop was standing in the pulpit and I'm next to him and he's telling deliverance from death war stories, and suddenly stops and looks at me and he said David what is MA?00:48:34.474 --> 00:48:38.764


I thought MA, master of Arts, I don't know.00:48:38.764 --> 00:48:43.523


Then he says no, no, no, no, I got something wrong.00:48:43.523 --> 00:48:44.467


I got something wrong.00:48:44.467 --> 00:48:58.264


And he stops in the middle of this service with all these people hanging on every word he's saying, puts his head in the pulpit and he prays for like a minute or half I'm sure it wasn't that long, it just felt like it was every time.00:48:58.264 --> 00:48:59.447


It just felt like it was forever.00:48:59.447 --> 00:49:04.208


Then he looks up and he looks at me and then he looks out of the congregation.00:49:04.208 --> 00:49:07.704


He says it's a wasting muscle disease.00:49:07.704 --> 00:49:09.929


It starts in your head.00:49:09.929 --> 00:49:16.110


It causes your face to sag, your shoulder blades go out of position, your spine sometimes gets a curve.00:49:16.110 --> 00:49:19.063


Chronic pain starts between 16 and 20.00:49:19.063 --> 00:49:22.650


And if you damage a muscle you lose it forever.00:49:22.650 --> 00:49:34.246


He gave a perfect medical description of the trajectory of FSH muscular dystrophy which my wife was suffering from and all of our.00:49:34.326 --> 00:49:35.530


We'd been in that church five years.00:49:35.530 --> 00:49:38.949


At that point Everybody in the congregation knew the issue.00:49:38.949 --> 00:49:45.987


Many of the ladies in the church had helped my wife even clean the house, because she couldn't move the couch to vacuum underneath it, that kind of thing.00:49:45.987 --> 00:49:47.385


She couldn't do the stairs.00:49:47.385 --> 00:49:58.880


They'd come over and volunteer, and so they were sitting with her and as this guy is talking, all of us are becoming aware he's describing her medical condition.00:49:58.880 --> 00:50:17.615


I watch her and then he says this Whoever has this Jesus has air over her head for the first time in more than 20 years, and all of our friends, all of them knew that this was absolutely beyond the realm of the ordinary.00:50:17.615 --> 00:50:34.751


Now we had invited people from Vancouver to come to our Edmonton church to hear this guy preach, because they were thinking about joining us in the next mission endeavor, because I taught, others did evangelism and others did build projects, and so this is an evangelistic couple.00:50:34.751 --> 00:50:37.070


They were trying to figure out if they should come and they're staying in our projects, and so this is an evangelistic couple.00:50:37.070 --> 00:50:38.324


They were trying to figure out if they should come and they're staying in our home.00:50:38.324 --> 00:50:47.090


And so the plan was, after church was done, that I would go home and take down the heavy pots and pans that were on top shelves that we never used unless we had company.00:50:47.090 --> 00:51:04.541


And we got home, she climbs the stairs all by herself, she pushes me out of the way, she gets a stool, she stands on the stool, she reaches the heavy pots and pans and brings them down herself and everybody is in awe because all of us in the room knew what had just happened.00:51:05.483 --> 00:51:11.800


Now, a week later, one week later, my daughter starts to push her brother's buttons.00:51:11.800 --> 00:51:16.271


She decides to be mean and nasty to her brother at the breakfast table.00:51:16.271 --> 00:51:18.023


She's never liked this.00:51:18.023 --> 00:51:26.302


She got into a snit for some reason and she knew all the weak points and she was telling him this and telling him that he was gradually losing his ability to keep his cool.00:51:26.302 --> 00:51:28.186


He was doing his best to be a Christian lad.00:51:28.186 --> 00:51:34.992


I was trying to figure out how to discipline my daughter and suddenly my wife lost it and she said that's enough.00:51:34.992 --> 00:51:51.246


And suddenly my wife lost it and she said that's enough and took her by the hand and ran her up the stairs and got her into the bedroom and knelt down beside the bed and made her pick up all her toys and make her bed, then ran her into the bathroom to brush her teeth and ran her down the stairs, then put her in the van and drove her to school.00:51:51.246 --> 00:51:59.342


And we were so mad we didn't thaw out from the rage until noon and realized my wife had run up and down those stairs.00:51:59.342 --> 00:52:01.987


It's a miracle.00:52:03.989 --> 00:52:06.894


And now about listen, there's 20 years of no answer.00:52:06.894 --> 00:52:08.121


You got to know this.00:52:08.121 --> 00:52:17.972


I mean, we're talking about 20 years before that where there was no answer, where we lived in that thing called holy mystery, suffering without purpose.00:52:17.972 --> 00:52:34.512


Now, in our case, the answer came, and what I want to say is there are seasons in lives and there are seasons where the Lord moves in mighty power and there are seasons where he's silent.00:52:34.512 --> 00:52:38.545


Moves in mighty power and there are seasons where he's silent.00:52:38.545 --> 00:52:43.681


There are seasons where he gives you a partial answer or guides you, and there are seasons where you sit based on previous revelations.00:52:43.722 --> 00:52:46.552


So, elijah, he's sent to the widow of Zarephath's house.00:52:46.552 --> 00:52:48.661


Right, his friends are being killed.00:52:48.661 --> 00:52:50.485


They're being killed.00:52:50.485 --> 00:52:59.168


Right, obadiah is saving some of them by hiding 50 in caves at a time, but he has no communication, he has no ability to talk with them.00:52:59.168 --> 00:53:04.264


He's commanded by the Lord to sit in some upper apartment and there's no chores, there's no crop.00:53:04.264 --> 00:53:05.889


He can sweep the floor.00:53:05.889 --> 00:53:07.547


That's all he can do.00:53:07.547 --> 00:53:09.420


He can play with the kids.00:53:09.420 --> 00:53:10.965


He sits there in the room.00:53:10.965 --> 00:53:12.860


All he can do is pray and visit.00:53:12.860 --> 00:53:14.246


That's it.00:53:14.246 --> 00:53:21.913


And for whatever reason, it wasn't until in the middle of the third year that God said oh, by the way, I'm going to do it now.00:53:21.913 --> 00:53:29.994


In the middle of the third year, god says to Elijah go and confront Ahab and I will send rain upon the earth.00:53:30.840 --> 00:53:32.985


Now, what was it like for those three years?00:53:32.985 --> 00:53:41.590


I think he was bored out of his ever-loving tree or he was playing with the kid or talking to the lady.00:53:41.590 --> 00:53:43.867


It's very clear they kept separate quarters.00:53:43.867 --> 00:53:46.405


He was in the upper story, she was downstairs with the boy.00:53:46.405 --> 00:53:47.903


The boy dies.00:53:47.903 --> 00:53:49.985


In the ruin story he raises the boy from the dead.00:53:49.985 --> 00:53:51.539


It's the first resurrection story in the Bible.00:53:51.539 --> 00:54:04.572


But apart from that one moment, we don't know what he did with those three years, apart from seek God.00:54:04.572 --> 00:54:05.717


So healing prayer is not one, two, three.00:54:05.717 --> 00:54:06.360


Now you're free.00:54:10.079 --> 00:54:11.181


Healing prayer is engagement with the power of God.00:54:11.181 --> 00:54:24.360


It's revealed to us through Jesus of Nazareth, who sends gifts of the spirit and acts according to his purposes, and our goal is to discern the voice and hear what it is that Jesus is saying while we quote that by praying, the very thing God sends to us.00:54:24.360 --> 00:54:31.817


So the way I say it in the book is we pray into existence what God wants done.00:54:31.817 --> 00:54:34.385


Now, the second half is more important than the first.00:54:34.385 --> 00:54:42.273


We pray as a human agent cooperating with the divine presence, and God always uses the human agent, always.00:54:42.273 --> 00:54:44.541


That's why God became a human in Jesus.00:54:44.541 --> 00:55:03.250


God always uses the human agent, so he sends the spirit on us as participants in the second and last Adam, whose name is Jesus, and then, as he prays, through his sinless perfection being joined to us and covering us, the power of the Spirit flows through us to accomplish what God has.00:55:04.481 --> 00:55:06.588


I have one other question.00:55:06.588 --> 00:55:14.085


You know, sometimes, you know, people say well, you know, like, you know in the Bible it talks about the.00:55:14.085 --> 00:55:15.204


You know the world's plan.00:55:15.204 --> 00:55:16.251


But then you know in the Bible it talks about the.00:55:16.251 --> 00:55:29.016


You know the world's prayer and you know we should pray this way and some people will pray and they'll pray, you know, and use the words in Jesus' name after you know every prayer.00:55:29.016 --> 00:55:31.481


Do you know?00:55:31.481 --> 00:55:36.753


Do we need to use those words in order for that prayer to be?00:55:36.873 --> 00:55:37.173


answered.00:55:37.173 --> 00:55:48.293


The name is his personality, his presence, and so to be in the name is to be inside the framework of Jesus himself.00:55:48.293 --> 00:55:50.867


It's to participate in his spirit.00:55:50.867 --> 00:55:52.826


It's a reminder to us.00:55:52.826 --> 00:55:57.231


I will tell you that when you say the name, power is released.00:55:57.231 --> 00:56:00.067


But if you're doing it like a how do I say?00:56:00.067 --> 00:56:03.730


There's enough profanity out there, where I hear it as a swear word.00:56:03.730 --> 00:56:06.965


It has no meaning whatsoever, it's empty of value.00:56:08.900 --> 00:56:12.668


The illustration of this is in the book of Acts, the story of the seven sons of Siva.00:56:12.668 --> 00:56:13.731


I think it's chapter 19.00:56:13.731 --> 00:56:14.652


I'm doing this from memory.00:56:14.652 --> 00:56:28.922


I'm happy to correct it if it's wrong, but these seven Jewish guys are becoming aware that the name Jesus that Paul is preaching is letting Paul do miraculous acts of power and to cast out demons.00:56:28.922 --> 00:56:30.686


You can find the story in the Acts.00:56:30.686 --> 00:56:35.820


Anyway, there's seven sons of one priest whose name is Siva.00:56:35.820 --> 00:56:36.702


It's really kind of fun.00:56:36.762 --> 00:56:47.969


Anyway, these seven guys show up with a man who's infested with an unclean power and they say we command you to leave in the name of Jesus, who Paul preaches.00:56:47.969 --> 00:56:49.311


They actually say that.00:56:49.311 --> 00:56:56.436


And the demon says oh, I know Jesus, I know about Paul, who are you?00:56:56.436 --> 00:57:00.063


Then he beats up seven guys.00:57:00.063 --> 00:57:03.090


It actually says he strips the clothes off seven men.00:57:03.090 --> 00:57:07.490


Now if I had just beat them up and got them out of the room, that would have been enough for me.00:57:07.490 --> 00:57:14.434


The demon is not satisfied until he completely humiliates all seven men, beats all of them down and knocks them to the ground.00:57:14.840 --> 00:57:20.451


And then it says this when this news came out, the name of Jesus was glorified.00:57:20.451 --> 00:57:24.128


He wasn't glorified because seven men got beat up.00:57:24.128 --> 00:57:31.619


He was glorified because his name is not a charm, it is not an epitaph to be repeated.00:57:31.619 --> 00:57:40.023


It is something that is to be uttered when you are in the presence of Jesus of Nazareth by the power of his spirit.00:57:40.023 --> 00:57:49.206


And so the name is actually the concentration of Jesus' presence and all of his power inside the believer.00:57:49.206 --> 00:57:55.889


And when they name that out loud, it is to be because the Holy Spirit inside of you is already bearing witness to that.00:57:57.079 --> 00:57:59.469


So name and presence are very nearly identical.00:57:59.469 --> 00:58:01.838


Name and power are very nearly identical.00:58:01.838 --> 00:58:06.228


You have Psalms that put name and power and name and presence side by side.00:58:06.228 --> 00:58:15.402


In fact, famous Psalm, cast me not away from your presence, take not your Holy Spirit from me makes it clear that presence and Holy Spirit are identical.00:58:15.402 --> 00:58:19.867


And the same thing happens with in what name or in what power are you doing?00:58:19.867 --> 00:58:21.489


This, says the Sanhedrin to Peter.00:58:21.489 --> 00:58:24.052


In what name and what power?00:58:24.052 --> 00:58:35.099


So name and power, name and presence, holy Spirit and power, holy Spirit and name intertwined.00:58:35.099 --> 00:58:36.461


So to use the name.00:58:36.461 --> 00:58:37.244


It's not to be done cheaply.00:58:37.244 --> 00:58:50.615


It's to be done in the context of some kind of ministry, where someone needs the presence of god to enter in and calm their troubled emotions, cast out the unclean spirit, bring a healing presence to the individual.00:58:50.615 --> 00:58:52.001


It's not a magic charm.00:58:52.001 --> 00:58:53.282


Does that answer the question?00:58:53.282 --> 00:58:53.804


It?00:58:53.844 --> 00:58:58.074


does, and I guess what I was getting at.00:58:58.074 --> 00:59:11.530


Obviously we should use the name Jesus in our prayers, but using the term I guess is the word to use in Jesus' name doesn't negate the prayers.00:59:11.530 --> 00:59:13.427


I guess is what I was getting at.00:59:13.922 --> 00:59:14.724


No, it doesn't negate it.00:59:14.724 --> 00:59:15.447


All it is is a reminder't.00:59:15.447 --> 00:59:15.889


It doesn't.00:59:15.889 --> 00:59:19.469


All it is is a reminder that you're in him.00:59:19.469 --> 00:59:26.065


And I will say this when I say the name of Jesus to someone who's experienced demonization, the unclean spirit cringes.00:59:26.065 --> 00:59:28.887


It does not like the name of Jesus.00:59:28.887 --> 00:59:39.315


In fact, I just did cast out a demon from a lake in Cambodia I was just overseas and so when I use the name of Jesus, the unclean spirit trembles.00:59:39.315 --> 00:59:45.929


But it only works if you're in his presence at the same time as you're uttering that word.00:59:45.929 --> 00:59:55.806


And so the word of Jesus or it's Yesu in Greek, it's Yeshua in Hebrew, and there's other pronunciations across the planet Jesus in Spanish culture.00:59:55.806 --> 00:59:58.288


Different cultures pronounce it differently.00:59:58.288 --> 01:00:01.369


It's not the exact pronunciation that does the job.01:00:01.369 --> 01:00:10.543


It's the godly walk of the person who submitted to that Jesus, who then uses the name as a function of power, and that's how that works.01:00:12.469 --> 01:00:17.835


Yeah Well, dr David David, thank you so much for coming on this show today.01:00:17.835 --> 01:00:19.304


We greatly appreciate it.01:00:19.865 --> 01:00:21.351


Thank you, it's been a delight to be here.01:00:21.351 --> 01:00:24.342


Can I tell people where to get my books, absolutely okay.01:00:24.342 --> 01:00:27.050


Well, this one, the healing prayer book, is available anywhere books are sold.01:00:27.050 --> 01:00:31.001


You can go to Walmart and order this thing, you can get it on Amazon or you can go to christiansbookcom.01:00:31.001 --> 01:01:04.449


Anytime you listen, there is a free gift of two chapters of the audio book from this book, and so if you give me your email information, I will give you chapter one, which includes my testimony and the testimony of Maxie Dunham, the co-writer of the book, includes my testimony and the testimony of Maxie Dunham, the co-writer of the book, and then an applicational chapter, chapter eight, from the book, where we teach people about how to actually go about doing prayer for healing, and you do that simply by giving me your contact information.01:01:04.449 --> 01:01:16.704


So I'd be delighted if some of your listeners would do that and avail themselves of this particular gift, because lots of times people can't sit down to read, but they can listen to an audio book, and this one's on an audio book.01:01:17.340 --> 01:01:23.210


Will you say encouraging words and maybe even say a prayer for us as we get ready to end here?01:01:23.711 --> 01:01:24.494


I would love to do that.01:01:24.494 --> 01:01:32.793


Heavenly Father, I want to thank you for Dorsey and his commitment to teaching and understanding and sharing the gospel of our Lord, jesus Christ.01:01:32.793 --> 01:01:37.608


He's got thousands of listeners and right now I'm aware that somebody out there isn't feeling well.01:01:37.608 --> 01:01:49.152


Somebody out there is in the middle of a time of terrible suffering, somebody's in emotional anguish, somebody's gone through some terrible thing and now they have cancer or they're dealing with some sort of a blood disease.01:01:49.152 --> 01:01:57.414


Whatever the issue of the day happens to be, I know this about you your desire for our good is greater than our desire for it.01:01:58.719 --> 01:02:10.740


Would you send your goodness and your grace and your healing virtue and your power onto anyone who's listening to this podcast to bring them to any one of the five pathways we've talked about?01:02:10.740 --> 01:02:11.463


We've talked about the instant heal.01:02:11.463 --> 01:02:12.266


We've talked about natural healing.01:02:12.266 --> 01:02:12.849


We've talked about a pathway.01:02:12.849 --> 01:02:14.594


We've talked about suffering without purpose and we've talked about the instant heal.01:02:14.594 --> 01:02:15.338


We've talked about natural healing.01:02:15.338 --> 01:02:15.940


We've talked about a pathway.01:02:15.940 --> 01:02:22.541


We've talked about suffering without purpose and we've talked about the crossing over onto your side, jesus.01:02:22.541 --> 01:02:25.010


All five of these are yours.01:02:25.010 --> 01:02:35.050


Would you use it in a way that may everyone who's listening more like Jesus, grant that in your mighty and your precious name.01:02:36.621 --> 01:02:36.804


Amen, amen.01:02:36.804 --> 01:02:39.318


Grant that in your mighty and your precious name, amen you know.01:02:39.318 --> 01:02:42.184


Thank you again for coming on my joy.01:02:42.204 --> 01:02:43.168


I'd be delighted to come back.01:02:43.168 --> 01:02:46.806


You want me to talk about listening to the voice or dealing with the powers of darkness?01:02:46.806 --> 01:02:50.485


I've got a new book coming out on Mark's gospel shortly okay, sounds good.01:02:51.063 --> 01:02:54.554


Well, guys and girls, thank you so much for coming on this show today.01:02:54.554 --> 01:02:56.806


We greatly appreciate having you.01:02:56.806 --> 01:03:05.550


Please go and check out Dr David's website and his books, and check out my previous episodes as well.01:03:05.550 --> 01:03:07.925


And until next time, god bless.01:03:07.925 --> 01:03:08.527


Bye-bye.